The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!

[Alex]

Oh it is very much here or there. NATO is just a convenient excuse and if he didn't have that, he'd have found another one, just like he did for the countries he has invaded that were nowhere near NATO expansion.

[lester1/2jr]

and why was it a "convenient excuse"? why was it convenient and good to use as an excuse? because it was real and happening and tangible, unlike the idea that he was going to somehow bring back the Soviet Union

[Rev. Powell]

[ the direct cause of this conflagration is Ukraine possibly entering into NATO and the US setting up shop on russia's border.

Ukraine has been begging to join NATO for years, for obvious reasons. Ukraine wanted to join NATO so Russia would not invade, Russia wanted to invade Ukraine so it would not join NATO. Chicken and the egg.

[Alex]

Ok, let's put this in simple terms.

Putin wants all the old territory the Soviet Union controlled. In order to sell this to the Russian people he has been using NATO as a bogeyman and claiming its expansion is in order to threaten the Russian Federation (ignoring that most NATO members have seriously slashed their defence budgets since the end of the Cold War and would lack the manpower and equipment required to seriously take part in a war against it). If he didn't have this he'd have to come up with something different. Usual ways of achieving this include false flag terrorist operations, but there are other ways. Since he does have the NATO expansion though, he doesn't need to do that. Hence it is a convenient excuse for him. Ukraine has said it would like to join NATO, but NATO has never said it can. The closest has been that it (NATO) has said it (Ukraine) isn't ready to join.

He wants to retake all the territory that the Soviet Union controlled. To achieve this he has launched military operations in several of them (as mentioned previously, in countries that are nowhere near NATO countries, have not expressed an interest in joining).

Ever put some thought into why these countries want to join NATO? To get protection from exactly the stuff Putin is doing. He might claim that NATO getting closer to Russia is a threat to them, but there are areas that have been attacked and invaded many times by Russia over the centuries. Maybe if they didn't they would have more friendly countries on their borders.

He is trying to dictate to other nations what their foreign policy should be. I wonder how you'd feel if another country was telling yours what it could and couldn't do.

Let's not forget, NATO was put together in the first place as a defensive alliance (and still is) as a counter to Soviet aggression. Its members come to each other's aid if one is attacked. There is nothing in there about coming together to launch a war. The reason so many eastern European countries joined Hitler's war against the U.S.S.R. is because it had been terrorising its neighbours and stealing territory off them. What is happening now is just a repeat of what they have been doing for a very long time whether it is the Russian Empire, USSR or Russian Federation.

[WingedSerpent]

I don't know how many people I've told this, but I've always had a sneaking suspicion I'd be alive for the apocalypse.  Of all the things I've gotten wrong in my life, why did this happen to be the one it looks like I got right.

[LilCerberus]

I don't know how many people I've told this, but I've always had a sneaking suspicion I'd be alive for the apocalypse.  Of all the things I've gotten wrong in my life, why did this happen to be the one it looks like I got right.

Agreed

[Allhallowsday]

He has said several times he wants to rebuild the USSR.

that is neither here nor there. the direct cause of this conflagration is Ukraine possibly entering into NATO and the US setting up shop on russia's border. both sides have addressed this issue numerous times in the days and weeks preceding this

You are mistaken.  It is totally THERE.  NATO is his pretext and the assumption that the "western allies" were hollow.  NATO gets in the way of pootin  rebuilding the "evil empire".  

[lester1/2jr]

Yeah I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

[RCMerchant]

Why it happened does not seem to be the most important issue at the moment.
They have foot soldiers on the ground; bombs are dropping.
I'm worried where this will lead. A lot of countries are p**sed. When will Putin commit some massacre that draws NATO into a foot war? I am not optimistic.

[indianasmith]

Ya gotta understand, Lester will never acknowledge America is right when it comes to foreign policy.

[Rev. Powell]

Ironically, if Putin successfully annexes Ukraine he will have a massive border with NATO.

[Allhallowsday]

POOtin is working off of a 20th century playbook.  It's a disaster that can only worsen.  God help the people on the ground. 

[Allhallowsday]

Yeah I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Yeh, that POOtin is a "peacemaker".  Piece of sh!t maker. 

[lester1/2jr]

I would suggest people read Putins speech if you get the chance

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24

It's mostly about Russia's relationship with NATO. He lays it all out there

President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Citizens of Russia, friends,

I consider it necessary today to speak again about the tragic events in Donbass and the key aspects of ensuring the security of Russia.

I will begin with what I said in my address on February 21, 2022. I spoke about our biggest concerns and worries, and about the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border.

It is a fact that over the past 30 years we have been patiently trying to come to an agreement with the leading NATO countries regarding the principles of equal and indivisible security in Europe. In response to our proposals, we invariably faced either cynical deception and lies or attempts at pressure and blackmail, while the North Atlantic alliance continued to expand despite our protests and concerns. Its military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border.

.... [later]

Despite all that, in December 2021, we made yet another attempt to reach agreement with the United States and its allies on the principles of European security and NATO's non-expansion. Our efforts were in vain. The United States has not changed its position. It does not believe it necessary to agree with Russia on a matter that is critical for us. The United States is pursuing its own objectives,

indianasmith - I liked when both Biden and Trump killed ISIS leaders.



that said let me add one thing: the whole talking point of "this didn't happen under Trump" is stupid. If Trump were president he would have launched a missile at Moscow and we'd be in a world of hurt. That guy was ignorant about how the world works and also nuts.

[indianasmith]

Well, we agree on Trump, too, then! LOL

I saw some moron on FB had a Bat-signal modified with Trump's profile shining in the sky, with the caption: "The Whole World Right Now!"

And I thought, how clueless can these people get? Trump was the MOST unpopular American leader abroad in decades.  He was a laughing stock, but they seem to think he's Jesus, Batman, and John Wayne all rolled into one.

It's a freaking cult.