Fame or Shame: Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread

[HappyGilmore]

People may talk about ego, but Hogan rightfully deserves to be in any sort of wrestling 'hall of fame' so to speak. 

A lot of people my age probably wouldn't even be watching wrestling if it wasn't for Hogan.  He was the superhero type we all had as a kid in the '80s, and with him, Macho Man, Ultimate Warrior and Ric Flair, were the guys who drew us in.

I never got to see him live though.

[JaseSF]

The Undertaker enters the Hall of Fame. I think of all wrestling gimmick guys, he's one the most deserving to go into a pro wrestling Hall of Fame. The gimmick has always worked and gotten over with the fans and Undertaker has more often than not played it up to the hilt. He's surprisingly convincing in his role and seems to truly know how to play up the theatrics associated with his most successful character. Undertaker started off in the late 1980s Memphis, USWA and World Class Wrestling under many different guises and names sometimes wrestling under a mask and called himself stuff like The Master of Pain and The Punisher. He would move to WCW shortly thereafter and would be given the lame name "Mean" Mark. Well "Mean" Mark's true talents may not have been recognized or given a chance to shine in WCW but when he arrived in the WWF in the early 1990s as Kane the Undertaker, the gimmick went over like gold. He started off as a successful, practically unbeatable heel monster battling the likes of Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage and would eventually turn into a huge crowd favourite given his constant success and the fact he never seemed to back down from any fight. He would go on to win numerous WWF World and World Tag Team Titles defeating a virtual who's who of the wrestling world including Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Sid Vicious, Bret Hart, Batista, C.M. Punk just to name a few. He of course has the 18-0 undefeated streak at Wrestlemania, a feat that is not likely to be ever again be matched by any other wrestling performer. At Wrestlemania he's defeated numerous top stars such as Jimmy Snuka, Jake Roberts, Ric Flair, Triple H, Big Bossman, King Kong Bundy, Giant Gonzales, Albert, Big Show, Mark Henry, Kane, Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, Batista, Diesel Kevin Nash and Edge.  His had feuds with numerous monsters of the ring including Kamala, Bundy, Gonzales, Big Show and many more and fought in great matches with the likes of the Rock, Austin, Flair, Hogan, Bret Hart, Ken Shamrock, HBK, HHH and numerous others. He totally belongs in a pro wrestling Hall of Fame.

[JaseSF]

The Sandman joins the Hall of Shame. Technically the Sandman contributed very much to a major change in professional wrestling in the mid-1990s as ECW became popular and rules in the ring began to get fazed out more and more. Personally I've never truly cared for the hardcore style of pro wrestling although I have to admit it has led to some entertaining bloody in ring brawls. But it's mostly a style employed by wrestlers who truthfully cannot really wrestle. They make up for a lack of in-ring skills by using and being hit with weapons. Sandman's favourite weapon in wrestling has long been the Singapore cane and he's used that weapon probably far more effectively than any other grappler. Thing is I'm not really sure that's in and of itself a major achievement. Yet Sandman was a major influence without any doubt IMO on one "Stone Cold" Steve Austin. He was certainly smoking and drinking on his way to the ring years before Austin was doing beer baths. It's also interesting to note that Sandman's success outside of ECW was very limited although he did win the WCW Hardcore Title as Hardcore Hak and did compete surprisingly long for WWE. Sandman also should be given a nod for his disturbing psychological feud with Raven in ECW over his son and ex. Sandman is a multi-time ECW Champion.

[Mr. DS]

The Undertaker has a look that fit the gimmick.  Though the gimmick got silly at times (especially with the urn power source) I was usually able to look past how goofy it got.  I was more of a fan of his when he was a heel, especially when he first came out and attacked the Ultimate Warrior.  I should also add he also had great agility for a big man in the ring. 

The Sandman, I respect his endeavors to promote his brand of wrestling.  And yes, Stone Cold was a latecomer to Sandman's antics in the ring.  I kind of grew away from his style of wrestling after awhile.  One can only see so many chair and cane shots before the antics grow less shocking. Hence, why I was voting against him.   I did see him wrestle live at an ECW (pre WWE buyout) event in Worcester MA.  He was fighting an opponant in the crowd right next to me.  Fun times. 

[HappyGilmore]

The Sandman joins the Hall of Shame. Technically the Sandman contributed very much to a major change in professional wrestling in the mid-1990s as ECW became popular and rules in the ring began to get fazed out more and more. Personally I've never truly cared for the hardcore style of pro wrestling although I have to admit it has led to some entertaining bloody in ring brawls. But it's mostly a style employed by wrestlers who truthfully cannot really wrestle. They make up for a lack of in-ring skills by using and being hit with weapons. Sandman's favourite weapon in wrestling has long been the Singapore cane and he's used that weapon probably far more effectively than any other grappler. Thing is I'm not really sure that's in and of itself a major achievement. Yet Sandman was a major influence without any doubt IMO on one "Stone Cold" Steve Austin. He was certainly smoking and drinking on his way to the ring years before Austin was doing beer baths. It's also interesting to note that Sandman's success outside of ECW was very limited although he did win the WCW Hardcore Title as Hardcore Hak and did compete surprisingly long for WWE. Sandman also should be given a nod for his disturbing psychological feud with Raven in ECW over his son and ex. Sandman is a multi-time ECW Champion.

ECW and it's violence didn't endear itself to everybody.  But I think for all his limitations as an in ring competitor (he certainly couldn't go hold for hold with a guy like Dean Malenko, for example) his character, as stated, helped paved the way for some other characters that became more popular (Stone Cold, a couple others.). 

ECW, for all it's hardcore antics, helped both WCW and WWE change the way they did business, for sure.  They were promoting directly to the 18-34 demographic at a time when WWE was feeding us Papa Shango and Ultimate Warrior and WCW was giving us Sting (great wrestler) and "Arachniman" Brad Armstrong.  And, despite ECW's reliance on the "hardcore" style, it did offer great WRESTLING as well, bringing in guys like Malenko, Guerrero, Benoit, Too Cold Scorpio, Perry Saturn, Rey Mysterio, Psychosis, Ron "Faarooq" Simmons, and Konnan, amongst others, who could actually do straight WRESTLING matches.  Also utilizing some legends like Terry Funk and Jimmy Snuka early on, as well as Dusty Rhodes at the end of it's run.  Yeah, everyone remembers the violence, but forgets guys like Tajiri, CW Anderson, Steve Corino, Simon Diamond and Mikey Whipwreck, who could do the blood and guts as well as technical masterpieces.  It was a niche promotion that I would've loved to have seen last longer, but unfortunately, it didn't.

[JaseSF]

Hillbilly Jim joins the Hall of Shame. Hillbilly Jim started out in the WWF as a "fan" in the audience who would be seen week after week until finally he would eventually get involved in the ring hoping to defend and be trained by his favourite the Hulkster Hulk Hogan after rejecting offers from then heel "Rowdy" Roddy Piper. We soon thereafter learned that Jim practiced "Rasslin'" at home and would thereafter become a WWF mainstay during the mid to late 1980s. He was just a jovial, good natured country boy that the vast majority of fans took an instant liking to. He was also quite a big man, weighing in at over 300 pounds and being well over 6 foot tall (6'7"), he was an imposing big man in country overalls. He would go on to have feuds with many stars most notably the likes of Piper, King Kong Bundy and the Magnificent Muraco. He would even get into a feud with Mr. Fuji that unfortunately resulted in a gimmick tuxedo match where the goal was the rip off each other's clothes  . Hillbilly was so popular with WWF Fans that the WWF eventually brought in more Hillbilly "family" members including Uncle Elmer, Cousin Luke and Cousin Junoir, none of whom had the lasting power or memorableness of Hillbilly Jim. Hillbilly's biggest matches were probably his Wrestlemania III match where he teamed with two midgets Little Beaver and The Haiti Kid against King Kong Bundy and two midgets Lord Littlebrook and Little Tokyo which saw Bundy attack poor Little Beaver; his match at Survivor Series 1988 where he was on Hulk Hogan's team and an appearance in the Wrestlemania II battle royal. Hillbilly Jim would return to wrestling in the late 1990s as the manager of Henry O. and Phineas I. Godwinn, a team who would win the WWF Tag Team Titles. Hillbilly Jim still acts as something of a goodwill ambassador and is still employed in some fashion by WWE (video department I think) and something still makes special guest appearances at special WWE Events.

[JaseSF]

Terry Funk enters the Hall of Fame. Funk is a former NWA World Champion from back in the time and era that truly meant something. He is from the famous Funk family and is the son of Dory Funk Sr. and the brother of fellow former NWA World Champion Dory Funk Jr.. The Funks are the only brothers to have both held that honour. Funk of course was always a great brawler throughout his entire career but back in his NWA Championship days, he could go hold for hold with anyone too. Funk has been in numerous feuds over the years most resulting in wild, bloody brawls in and out of the ring.  The Funk brothers were also a great tag team who appeared all over the world and are perhaps best remembered for their feuds with the Briscoes and Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher. Some of Funk's greatest foes in his singles feuds have included Dusty Rhodes, Junkyard Dog, Ric Flair (who he had a very memorable feud with in 1989 culminating in a terrific "I Quit" Match), Jerry Lawler, Cactus Jack and many many more. Funk has competed in some of the most brutal hardcore and death matches in wrestling history but was doing so long before they became popular. ECW fans will certainly remember Funk as a middle aged and crazy grappler who was always willing to put his body on the line to entertain the fans whether battling Sabu or The Sandman or whoever else dared get in the ring with him. Terry Funk always seemed to give 110 percent in the ring and the fans loved and respected him for that (even when they booed him).

[HappyGilmore]

Terry Funk enters the Hall of Fame. ECW fans will certainly remember Funk as a middle aged and crazy grappler who was always willing to put his body on the line to entertain the fans whether battling Sabu or The Sandman or whoever else dared get in the ring with him. Terry Funk always seemed to give 110 percent in the ring and the fans loved and respected him for that (even when they booed him).

That was my introduction to Funk.  I kinda respect him for being willing to go and do moonsaults off ladders at 55 years old with two tremendously bad knees in an effort to help 'put over' guys like Sandman, Raven and Sabu.  And it worked.  Like them or not, Funk did indeed help put em on the map.

And he's crazy popular in Japan.

[Mr. DS]

Funk is a great role model for all young wrestlers.  As Happy said, he's put his body through hell mostly to help the younger guys get over.  You'd never see that from the likes of several egomanaics out there in the ring. 

[JaseSF]

Gorgeous George joins the Hall of Fame. George Wagner was a somewhat successful wrestler who saw his potential come to full realization when he started calling himself Gorgeous George donning fancy robes, being accompanied to the ring by a valet, adding "Pomp and Circumstance", putting fancy pins in and bleaching his blond hair, taking on effeminate qualities and generally acting as he was better than everyone else. George started making grand entrances and pro wrestling was changed forever. George was a Television media sensation, the man people loved to hate, the man they wanted to see get his, get brought down a peg or two, but were also fascinated enough with to tune in to see what he might wear, what he might say, what he might do every week. Gorgeous George was and still is one of professional wrestling's most charismatic  and flamboyant heels ever. He was actually quite capable in the ring too sometimes using underhanded means to gain quite a prominent win record. "The Toast of the Coast", "The Human Orchid", "The Sensation of the Nation" is well remembered for bouts with the likes of Lou Thesz, Whipper Watson, Bruno Sammartino, The Destroyer and so many more. He is often remembered for putting his blond locks on the line in Hair matches ultimately losing his hair twice.

The Patriot joins the Hall of Shame. In terms of physique few could match Del Wilkes, although it almost certainly was achieved in large part due to the use of steroids. He had all the look you'd assume a wrestler would need to be a major star and the masked Patriot gimmick seemed a natural fit for him. It was certainly a step up from the cheesy police Trooper gimmick Wilkes started out with in the AWA where Wilkes' first appeared as the AWA was practically on its deathbed. There he would win an AWA tag team title with D. J. Peterson. He would go on to greater success in Global, where he was their headline Champion, and later WCW, where he won several WCW tag team titles with Marcus Alexander Bagwell feuding mainly with Paul Orndorff and Paul Roma. After stints in Japan, eventually the Patriot would arrive in the WWF in the mid-90s and get himself into an heated feud with Bret Hart and the Hart Foundation. Sadly for all Wilkes' looks and his adequate, but certainly not great, ring skills, he just seemed to lack that essential something to make fans care about him. In fact, I'd bet a lot of people don't even remember him being involved at that time given the interest was more in grapplers like Steve Austin, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and the Undertaker. Even Psycho Sid and Vader seemed to interest fans more than the Patriot ever did and technically he pretty much lost his patriotic feud against Bret Hart in a series of flag matches. Patriot was more like a wrestler from another era, like someone you'd expect to have been a top star in the 70s and 80s, yet lacked the charisma to truly ever be a top headliner as evidenced perhaps by the failure of Global Wrestling.

[HappyGilmore]

The Patriot joins the Hall of Shame.   Even Psycho Sid and Vader seemed to interest fans more than the Patriot ever did 

Well, in all fairness to Vader, he was pretty damn entertaining.  Not so much Psycho Sid.

Although, I prefer say, '93 Vader to '97 Vader.

[Mr. DS]

The Patriot joins the Hall of Shame.   Even Psycho Sid and Vader seemed to interest fans more than the Patriot ever did  

Well, in all fairness to Vader, he was pretty damn entertaining.  Not so much Psycho Sid.

Although, I prefer say, '93 Vader to '97 Vader.

Vader was a monster back in the day and he was agile.  He did say in an interview he learned a lot of his scratch from Bam Bam Bigelow.  However, Vader in WWE was a joke and horribly misused.

Gorgeous George joins the Hall of Fame. George Wagner was a somewhat successful wrestler who saw his potential come to full realization when he started calling himself Gorgeous George donning fancy robes, being accompanied to the ring by a valet, adding "Pomp and Circumstance", putting fancy pins in and bleaching his blond hair, taking on effeminate qualities and generally acting as he was better than everyone else. George started making grand entrances and pro wrestling was changed forever. George was a Television media sensation, the man people loved to hate, the man they wanted to see get his, get brought down a peg or two, but were also fascinated enough with to tune in to see what he might wear, what he might say, what he might do every week. Gorgeous George was and still is one of professional wrestling's most charismatic  and flamboyant heels ever. He was actually quite capable in the ring too sometimes using underhanded means to gain quite a prominent win record. "The Toast of the Coast", "The Human Orchid", "The Sensation of the Nation" is well remembered for bouts with the likes of Lou Thesz, Whipper Watson, Bruno Sammartino, The Destroyer and so many more. He is often remembered for putting his blond locks on the line in Hair matches ultimately losing his hair twice.

My father used to tell me about Gorgeous George when I was growing up.  Since then I've watched a lot of his matches.  His theatrics were pure genius and were gauranteed to garnish heat on him.  For what fans put Goldust through was probably nothing compared to the stuff GG took on back in the day.  He was the original flamboyant heel people loved to hate.  Many modern wrestlers owe their gimmicks in some way to him. And non-pro wrestlers as well...from wikipedia...

Muhammad Ali and James Brown acknowledged that their own approach to flamboyant self-promotion was influenced by George. A 19-year old Ali met a 46-year old George at a Las Vegas radio station. During George's radio interview, the wrestler's promo caught the attention of the future heavyweight champion. If George lost to Classy Freddie Blassie, George exclaimed, "I'll crawl across the ring and cut my hair off! But that's not gonna happen because I'm the greatest wrestler in the world!" Ali recalled, "I saw 15,000 people comin' to see this man get beat. And his talking did it. I said, 'This is a gooood idea!'" In the locker room afterward, the seasoned wrestler gave the future legend some invaluable advice: "A lot of people will pay to see someone shut your mouth. So keep on bragging, keep on sassing and always be outrageous."

[HappyGilmore]

The Patriot joins the Hall of Shame.   Even Psycho Sid and Vader seemed to interest fans more than the Patriot ever did  

Well, in all fairness to Vader, he was pretty damn entertaining.  Not so much Psycho Sid.

Although, I prefer say, '93 Vader to '97 Vader.

Vader was a monster back in the day and he was agile.  He did say in an interview he learned a lot of his scratch from Bam Bam Bigelow.  However, Vader in WWE was a joke and horribly misused.

Gorgeous George joins the Hall of Fame. George Wagner was a somewhat successful wrestler who saw his potential come to full realization when he started calling himself Gorgeous George donning fancy robes, being accompanied to the ring by a valet, adding "Pomp and Circumstance", putting fancy pins in and bleaching his blond hair, taking on effeminate qualities and generally acting as he was better than everyone else. George started making grand entrances and pro wrestling was changed forever. George was a Television media sensation, the man people loved to hate, the man they wanted to see get his, get brought down a peg or two, but were also fascinated enough with to tune in to see what he might wear, what he might say, what he might do every week. Gorgeous George was and still is one of professional wrestling's most charismatic  and flamboyant heels ever. He was actually quite capable in the ring too sometimes using underhanded means to gain quite a prominent win record. "The Toast of the Coast", "The Human Orchid", "The Sensation of the Nation" is well remembered for bouts with the likes of Lou Thesz, Whipper Watson, Bruno Sammartino, The Destroyer and so many more. He is often remembered for putting his blond locks on the line in Hair matches ultimately losing his hair twice.

My father used to tell me about Gorgeous George when I was growing up.  Since then I've watched a lot of his matches.  His theatrics were pure genius and were gauranteed to garnish heat on him.  For what fans put Goldust through was probably nothing compared to the stuff GG took on back in the day.  He was the original flamboyant heel people loved to hate.  Many modern wrestlers owe their gimmicks in some way to him. And non-pro wrestlers as well...from wikipedia...

Muhammad Ali and James Brown acknowledged that their own approach to flamboyant self-promotion was influenced by George. A 19-year old Ali met a 46-year old George at a Las Vegas radio station. During George's radio interview, the wrestler's promo caught the attention of the future heavyweight champion. If George lost to Classy Freddie Blassie, George exclaimed, "I'll crawl across the ring and cut my hair off! But that's not gonna happen because I'm the greatest wrestler in the world!" Ali recalled, "I saw 15,000 people comin' to see this man get beat. And his talking did it. I said, 'This is a gooood idea!'" In the locker room afterward, the seasoned wrestler gave the future legend some invaluable advice: "A lot of people will pay to see someone shut your mouth. So keep on bragging, keep on sassing and always be outrageous."

Vader was horribly, horribly misused in WWE.  Which is two things: disappointing, but not shocking.  For a big man he was able to move (somewhat), had a fan following and a stiff style.  If utilized properly, he could've had decent feuds with a few people, but I suppose it wasn't meant to be.

[JaseSF]

Actually Vader was misused I'd argue before he came to WWF by WCW. He never truly recovered from Hogan's no-selling his power bomb finisher and losing matches to the likes of a much past his prime Hacksaw Duggan before coming to WWF. The way Vader was used in WCW in 92-93 though and Japan before that was awesome.

[HappyGilmore]

The way Vader was used in WCW in 92-93 though and Japan before that was awesome.

That's about the time I was a fan of his.  I liked his little feud with Cactus Jack, and the stuff I've seen of him in Japan was great.  Some things never work out the way they should though.