Karma Function Removed

[Menard]

I agree with you on the broader societal principle, but---it's just a message board, and one with a light-hearted mission.  I don't see why it has to reflect the harsh realities of the "real  world."

No it ain't.

If it were just a message board, then there would be hundreds just like this one out there; and there is not.

Problems come from those who think this is just a message board (not directed at you, Rev) and they don't care about a place where the rest of us come to enjoy the company of others; and, maybe, have an occasional friendly squabble . Since it's nothing special to them, they want to trash it and the members in it; and that's what happened with the abuse of the karma system.

[CheezeFlixz]

Also, this install of SMF has a lot of modifications I have applied.  Quite often, to install an upgrade or modification requires me to manually make the changes.  It is very time intensive, and can be annoying as heck.

I thought that might be the case, as I knew there was a number of mod's for these version of SMF, but I was aware that you made tweaks to it there for making a mod install a little more tricky.

[Mr. DS]

The karma system should never be viewed as a popularity contest.  I think that Darksider said it best in comparing the positive karma to a laugh.  It does not define who we are to each other.  It should never become something that overshadows the real goal:  trading knowledge, getting to know each other.

Cheers to that and this seems to be the best, IMHO, way to look at this issue.  If someone says something that ticks you off, form a rebutal and post it.  Keep the karma for the simple things people say or do that make your day. 

[Allhallowsday]

First, I should thank Andrew for having to deal with this poop and taking a lot of time to accomodate all of us.  

I think the admission is upstanding and I'm impressed.

I agree.
I gave Inyarear karma for being honest and owning up to his mistake.   
It was the right thing to do.  (for both me and him)

Yeh, give the culprit a point, reward him.   

Although I don't care for the action as it is basically backstabbing, and something a conservative would do , I think the admission is upstanding and I'm impressed.

Don't be so impressed.  Inyarear's back was up against the wall. 

I confess to "smiting" everyone on a certain misplaced political thread three times in 18 hours; also to calling in one of my friends from another forum to do some smiting there. (He declares no hard feelings for the ban, Andrew. He doesn't do much posting these days anyway.) All the same, I think the reaction has hurt more than helped. (I didn't get any letter, by the way. Did you send me one?)

I ask this understanding from all of you: I've been in flame wars on other boards, and they tend to bring out the worst in me. Striking at ratings always seemed to me a good substitute for long rants that only bump the thread and keep the hatred burning. I'm not into censorship and trying to control what other people see or do not see, but I do like having some form of "bozo filter" and on here that's what the glorified popularity contest known as the karma rating has been. All things considered, if karma is not reinstated, I nevertheless think a post rating or ignore function would continue to encourage civility.

You ask for understanding?  If you were to review any exchange between you and I, you will find I have always been civil, but you are not, including insulting me because I waded in late on parts of a discussion of the now infamously locked thread, and I wasn't even one of the major contributors.  You also denied the "good trick" of "smiting" my karma as many times as you did in a news item thread in which I offered no opinion.  Since you've come forward only in the wake of discoverey of your deed, I half expected you to exclaim: "I am not a crook...!" 
Here's a link to your denial, anyone here can decide for themselves...
http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,119531.0.html
...that Inyarear is a SNEAK. 

[ulthar]

What is needed is a system that also tracks what post generated the karma, who gave it, and when.  Then you have full disclosure, which should prevent abuse and provide better feedback to the person getting the karma.

I am not suggesting that one go this route, but the Slashdot "mod" system answers part of what you are asking for there.

For those that are not familiar with it, on Slashdot (a tech oriented geek forum), each message is "moderated."  Each post starts with a base score, 2 I think.  Mods can score a post such things as Funny, Interesting, Insightful which causes an increase in score by 1 point.  A message maxes out at 5 points.

Likewise, Mods can decrease the score of a post by modding it such things as Troll or Flamebait.

So, it would take at least three separate Mods to +1 a post for it to get a score of +5.  Part of the beauty of this system is that each user can set up a "Show posts by Score" filter, and show ONLY those posts that have a score greater than that value.

Users with "Excellent" karma get "Mod Points" periodically.  You get 5 Mod points at a time, meaning you get to score 5 posts when you get points.  You get "Excellent" karma by posting posts that get +5 scores - so in effect, the GOOD contributors get to perpetuate good scoring posts.  You cannot mod yourself OR any post in a thread in which you have posted.

Then there is Meta-Moderation - where you "agree" or "disagree" with the moderation values given by other mods.  This is to keep people from modding good posts "Flamebait" for example, just because they disagree with it.

It is a complicated system and it has its flaws like any other.  But, we could do something SIMILAR by having "karma" per post, not per user.  Imagine a system where we "applaud" or "boo" posts, and each message has its own score.

When you see something you like, "applaud" it.  There's no ambiguity about which message you typed that got you applauded.  Same with boo-ing, but I'm in the boo-ing should be used VERY sparingly camp so I don't focus on it in my discussion.

There's still the problem of WHO applauded, but maybe that's less important if we make the focus CONTENT centric rather than USER centric.  Applaud or Boo the User and it can ALWAYS look at least a little like a popularity contest.

[Menard]

First, I should thank Andrew for having to deal with this poop and taking a lot of time to accomodate all of us.   

I think the admission is upstanding and I'm impressed.

I agree.
I gave Inyarear karma for being honest and owning up to his mistake.   
It was the right thing to do.  (for both me and him)

Yeh, give the culprit a point, reward him.   

Although I don't care for the action as it is basically backstabbing, and something a conservative would do , I think the admission is upstanding and I'm impressed.

Don't be so impressed.  Inyarear's back was up against the wall. 

I confess to "smiting" everyone on a certain misplaced political thread three times in 18 hours; also to calling in one of my friends from another forum to do some smiting there. (He declares no hard feelings for the ban, Andrew. He doesn't do much posting these days anyway.) All the same, I think the reaction has hurt more than helped. (I didn't get any letter, by the way. Did you send me one?)

I ask this understanding from all of you: I've been in flame wars on other boards, and they tend to bring out the worst in me. Striking at ratings always seemed to me a good substitute for long rants that only bump the thread and keep the hatred burning. I'm not into censorship and trying to control what other people see or do not see, but I do like having some form of "bozo filter" and on here that's what the glorified popularity contest known as the karma rating has been. All things considered, if karma is not reinstated, I nevertheless think a post rating or ignore function would continue to encourage civility.

You ask for understanding?  If you were to review any exchange between you and I, you will find I have always been civil, but you are not, including insulting me because I waded in late on parts of a discussion of the now infamously locked thread, and I wasn't even one of the major contributors.  You also denied the "good trick" of "smiting" my karma as many times as you did in a news item thread in which I offered no opinion.  Since you've come forward only in the wake of discoverey of your deed, I half expected you to exclaim: "I am not a crook...!" 
Here's a link to your denial, anyone here can decide for themselves...
http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,119531.0.html
...that Inyarear is a SNEAK. 

Though I thought the admission was ballsy (though the action certainly was not ) I don't find myself disagreeing with you. He did deny the sniping when you took him to task.

[Allhallowsday]

...

...I ask this understanding from all of you: I've been in flame wars on other boards, and they tend to bring out the worst in me. Striking at ratings always seemed to me a good substitute for long rants that only bump the thread and keep the hatred burning. I'm not into censorship and trying to control what other people see or do not see, but I do like having some form of "bozo filter" and on here that's what the glorified popularity contest known as the karma rating has been. All things considered, if karma is not reinstated, I nevertheless think a post rating or ignore function would continue to encourage civility.

Though I thought the admission was ballsy (though the action certainly was not ) I don't find myself disagreeing with you. He did deny the sniping when you took him to task.

Conservatives are often criticizing "entitlements," and interestingly INyourREAR acts like he's entitled.  And no one noticed the swipe that INyourREAR took yet again at those he disagrees with... or thinks he disagrees with... "bozo filter."    Who's BOZO now?  Let's give INyourREAR karma for slipping in yet another insult, thinking he has the authority to judge those he dislikes, upending the board, and sneakily going about his dishonest ignore-the-rules-screw-common-decency activities.  He's not about truth; he's about agenda.     

[frank]

First of all, kudos to Andrew for not losing his temper with us bunch. I think I would have.

The karma thing was a fun toy to fiddle around with. I for myself liked the idea of granting karma points to people without them knowing where it came from, and if I have had the chance, I would have booed someone in the same spirit (I never stumbled on a post so insulting I felt the necessity to do so - although there may be such posts. However, I mainly stick to the threads I like).

If I'm correct, the idea of karma is, that you get positive karma when you behave in a certain way. You get bad karma if you behave different. The is no divine being granting you karma, you are responsible yourself. Although there might be rules for improving your chance to get positive karma, basically it happens by chance from time to time. In my opinion, the community here was a good substitution for that (hey, how many times did you wake up in the morning being a earthworm or woodlouse and wondered why - if you had a brain to wonder, that is).

Ahm, wandered off the trail a bit here, sorry. Got to go anyway, halftime is over (for all non-Europeans, it's EUROPEAN SOCCER CHAMPIONSHIP! We busted Poland yesterday - so chances are good for lotsa mornings feeling like some grub for me).

Anyhow, my opinion is, if people can't deal with the karma system, quit it. Just positive karma is silly.

[ulthar]

To Menard and AllHallowsDay,

He's been banned..sent into time-out - for a while.  It's likely he is not even reading these comments.

Does it really do any good to keep hashing over this stuff, keep flinging insults, keep giving the behaviour MORE attention?

The horse is dead...continued flogging does not hurt the horse.

We COULD have a positive discussion geared toward how to improve the system to (a) make those who want karma on the board to be happy and (b) to TRY to lessen the chance of abuse in the future.

That seems to me to be a bit more constructive than personal beratement, which is EXACTLY what this thread is tangentially about preventing.

Just my cents.  Feel free to flog me for a while.

[Menard]

Conservatives are often criticizing "entitlements," and interestingly INyourREAR acts like he's entitled.

That's both the hypocrisy and core of conservatism: divine entitlement, but nobody else should be allowed.

Interestingly also, UPyourASS...err...I mean INyourREAR has sparked the very thing he (er...she?) has said he was against.

I wonder:

Is it the supposed lack of civility?

Or is it free expression?

[Menard]

To Menard and AllHallowsDay,

He's been banned..sent into time-out - for a while.  It's likely he is not even reading these comments.

Does it really do any good to keep hashing over this stuff, keep flinging insults, keep giving the behaviour MORE attention?

The horse is dead...continued flogging does not hurt the horse.

We COULD have a positive discussion geared toward how to improve the system to (a) make those who want karma on the board to be happy and (b) to TRY to lessen the chance of abuse in the future.

That seems to me to be a bit more constructive than personal beratement, which is EXACTLY what this thread is tangentially about preventing.

Just my cents.  Feel free to flog me for a while.

Nah...you'd enjoy it too much.

[Andrew]

This is not a political thread.  This is not a thread about Inyarear.  This is a thread to discuss the root problem, and any possible solutions.  I have made the best attempt I could think of to patch the situation.

[AndyC]

I'd be entirely in favour of a negative karma system that allowed Andrew to see who did what to whom, but I do think the anonymity among users is important. It's enough of a deterrant to abuse if everyone is aware that Santa knows who's naughty and who's nice. Letting us see who dinged our karma is either going to cause more sniping, or deter negative karma entirely, making it pointless.

That said, I would love to be able to look up what the bad karma was for. Any time I've gotten it, I haven't had a clue what provoked it. It never seems to coincide with any post I consider potentially offensive. Criticism is only valuable if you know why you're being criticized. For me, the why matters much more than the who.

[indianasmith]

Wow!!  I'm gone for a weekend, and look what happens!

I'm glad to be able to give positive karma; although I rarely used the negative button, I will somewhat miss the ability to do so.  But it's sure not gonna keep me away from this forum that is my second home!

But in the meantime, karma to Andrew for being such a great mod!

[Allhallowsday]

To Menard and AllHallowsDay,
He's been banned..sent into time-out - for a while.  It's likely he is not even reading these comments.
Does it really do any good to keep hashing over this stuff, keep flinging insults, keep giving the behaviour MORE attention?
The horse is dead...continued flogging does not hurt the horse.
We COULD have a positive discussion geared toward how to improve the system to (a) make those who want karma on the board to be happy and (b) to TRY to lessen the chance of abuse in the future.
That seems to me to be a bit more constructive than personal beratement, which is EXACTLY what this thread is tangentially about preventing.  Just my cents.  Feel free to flog me for a while.

I wonder how you'd feel if you'd been the target.  The horse is not dead, it's merely put out to pasture for 10 days.  It's not about karma; it's about honesty and trust.  Being banned (temporarily) doesn't mean he can't read the thread.  If I had done what he did and was compelled to confess, I'd be interested to read what the rest of the membership had to say.